Re: Finding wood among the trees 23 September 2003
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Christopher J Noble,
postdoctoral fellow
Bern Switzerland

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Re: Re: Finding wood among the trees

The Perth group have been making the same claim since at least 1998.

"By comparison, two RNA containing viruses (polio and influenza, the latter after 27 years of dormancy,) vary by less than 1%"

I have previously provided the citation for this quote. It is taken from the Perth Group presentation at the Geneva AIDS conference (satellite meeting). (1)

You have made a specific claim about the genomes of both the polio virus and the influenza virus. You have directly compared the genetic variation in these two viruses with that in HIV. You have used this comparison to formulate an argument against the existence of HIV. You have used this claim not once but many times (2-5).

Now after I have provided you with references showing that poliovirus and influenza A isolates vary by much more than 1% all of a sudden you are no longer interested in these viruses. Why?

I have provided you with the sequences for the three Sabin poliovirus vaccine types. Why do you refuse to look at them? I asked you a simple direct question. Why do you refuse to answer it?

Two types of influenza A are currently cocirculating; H3N2 and H1N1. I have provided you with sequences from the same year from these two influenza viruses. The sequences differ by approximately 50%. Why do you refuse to look at these sequences? Why do you refuse to answer simple questions?

You have previously asked me a question "how it is possible with such variability to have proteins which have the same function, to induce the same antibodies which can be detected with a single antibody test, and to define "HIV" infection in molecular terms?"

Contrary to you assertion I have answered this question. There is not a single antibody test but a multitude of them. The initial antibody tests were based on viral lysates isolated from a small number of AIDS patients. Since then antibody tests have incorporated recombinant proteins, synthetic peptides or a combination of the three. Originally the antibody tests that are approved by the FDA were based only on HIV-1 group M. Since then antigens specific to HIV-2, HIV-1 group O and other non group M virus types have been added precisely because these tests were failing to detect non HIV-1 group M viruses.(6)

The Vironostika HIV Uni-Form II is one of the antibody tests that includes HIV-1 group O specific antigens.(7) It is not an exception as you claim it is one of many tests that incorporate HIV-1 group O specific antigens. This test is widely used in Africa and was in fact was used in the Nelson Mandela/Human Sciences Research Council study of HIV/AIDS in South Africa. (8) As you are well aware as you have predictably criticised this study (9).

It is indeed ironic that you quote an interview with Peter Duesberg in which he spends a large proportion of his time explaining exactly why your claims about viral isolation are preposterous (10).

"So they are claiming way above what the standards are for the identification of a virus, or any microbe, as the cause of a disease. The standards are only that it's free of other possible microbial causes. By the time when Koch, with his own postulates, identified tuberculosis bacillus [as the cause of tuberculosis], believe me, it was not chemically clean. They didn't have the methods at all at the time for chemical purification. They didn't have sucrose gradients, as Eleni always talks about; they didn't have gels and they didn't have any of those things. They didn't even know what proteins were at that time. "

With regards to your argument about genetic variation he states; " I'm afraid that if you followed that line of logic, then we wouldn't exist, either! What you are just describing, or she is describing to you, is nothing but what is called genetic polymorphism."

It is truly an amazing skill to turn a rejection of your arguments into support by selectively quoting Peter Duesberg.

Please answer my simple and direct questions regarding regarding the genomes of poliovirus and influenza A. Please do not repond with out of context quotes.

(1) (2) (3) (4) (5) (6) ery.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubM ed&list_uids=7898241&dopt=Abstract (7) uery.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMe d&list_uids=8844618&dopt=Abstract (8) ull_Report__Nelson_Mandela_HSRC_Study_o f_HIV_AIDS.html (9) COMMENTS%20ON%20NELSON%20MANDELAf.doc (10)

Competing interests:   None declared